Red hair, veggies & box-dye

[Starshine]

Hi all! (to the moderators: I hope it's the right place to post it (: and I'm being thick but how can I put the name of the page instead of the blue link? ^^ thx)
I have no personal experience with the use of red veggies (I've had my fair share of red box dyes, ages ago..) but I've seen that lately a lot of people are asking different questions on this theme, and that in the end the problem is always understanding how they work. So I thought to gather a bit of information here... like a small red info & troubleshooting ^^ correct me if you notice anything!!

Permanent / Box-dye red:
Like every perm dye, it works lifting your natural colour and depositing pigments.
(this is also why Colour B4 and similar will give you a gingery colour also starting from black, it's not them, it's the perm dye that lightened your natural colour)
Most red perm deposit both brown and red pigments. The red ones are bigger and don't get as deep as the others, so red will fade first, the brown not so much. This also means that probably the more perm dyes you do, the darker your hair gets.
Depending from the shade, sooner or later you'll be left with a lighter or deeper orange base.
Anyway, you shouldn't dye again for at least one month since all perm dyes, by lifting your colour, act as bleach. Even if it says "no bleach" it will have high vol peroxide, same story. It damages your hair a bit every time, but if you use deep conditioner etc it will be ok once at month max. (did I already mention that you should wait at least a month between perm dyes, between bleaches, between a perm dye and a bleach  or between a bleach and a bleach? ^^)
You really don't want to overprocess your hair: it will be dry, brittle, straw-like and break off at random places and there will be almost no way back to healthy( you already there? -> http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php?topic=1935.msg20179#msg20179)

Semi Permanent / Vegetables (veggie) red dyes
They don't lift your natural colour, but just deposit pigments on your hair.
they're moisturizing, not damaging, so you can leave them on for ages. Usually from 2 hours to overnight, I've also read a whole 24 h day somewhere... the more the better!!
You can also use them diluted, mix different shades (a red hat fades to pink + one that fades to orange = more balanced red. Fades->http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php?topic=812.0) and put them in your conditioner, so to top up every time you wash your hair and fade slower.
The red molecules are a bit smaller than the ones from the perm dyes, so they should take more washes to fade.
Since there is no lift, they need an other way to enter the hair shaft: the cuticles should be a bit raised. They usually don't take that well on virgin hair (ex. roots).
If you don't have naturally very light hair, you already need to bleach them (before! do not mix veggies with developer)
(or do bleach baths http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php?topic=995.0, which are less damaging, but you still have to wait at least a week in between)
to get a brighter colour, and that solves the problem as bleach raises the cuticles to reach your natural pigments and lighten them.
(Don't get scared from my rants about damage,it's just that the worst thing you could do to your hair is to fry it, when you could just wait a little more. it's perfectly possible to, and most people do, use bleach and have healthy hair! It just needs patience ^^ If you're in doubt and want more info: http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php?topic=994.0)
If you don't want/need to lighten your hair it's harder to get the red in, but you could try to get it dryer so that it will "suck up" the dye, by using clarifying shampoo or H&S scrubbing well, no conditioner, no leave-in, no heat protection, nothing! and blow-dry medium heat. Then apply dye for ages (2.5 hours minimum, up to what you can stand - see before).
Once dyed your main concern is to avoid fading (http://www.beeunique.co.uk/Hair-Tips.htm#section4), or bleeding on your hands/face/pillow/clothes. (use a vinegar rinse: wash/condition hair as usual and at last use 1cm of vinegar to 500ml of water, pour on hair and dry. shouldn't smell when dry.^^)

Use together
You can put veggies on perm dye for a lot of reasons: brighter colour, change a box-dye that didn't come out like you wanted (deep reds are quite forgiving in case of uneven base colours...), cover the fade or just try out a new shade without having it permanent!
Remember that veggies may start out a bit darker than you expected, but should get lighter as you wash them.
If you just can't stand the outcome you can fade it intentionally: http://www.hairdyeforum.com/index.php?topic=1704.0  just be aware that you might fade also the perm underneath...
 

Hope it will be helpful to someone!
Any suggestion/correction appreciated!!
<3 SV

[eeekitties]

This is really helpful actually. When I used the box dyes from the store, either semi or permanent I ended up with the bottom half of my hair like three shades darker than the top half.. which is really weird! I had to get the bottom half bleached to match my whole head. I really wanna start using semis

[Mathurine]

Wow, very helpful thanks! We often get asked about reds fading fast. As an ex red myself I knew about semi's being more permanent than permanents, hehehe.

[eeekitties]

^ that doesn't even make sense! Why don't they switch semi and perm. around?! Makes me mad hahaha :p

[Mathurine]

^ that doesn't even make sense! Why don't they switch semi and perm. around?! Makes me mad hahaha :p

I know right? I thought that too. When my hairdresser said use semi's coz they last longer I didn't believe her and actually used a semi to prove her wrong! D'uh, that'll teach me.

The "permanent" part of red box dyes actually applies to the brown undertones of the colour so that's why they're permanent but reds aren't permanent at all, no matter how hard you try they're always gonna drop out. I know several brands are making reds that last much longer than they used to so maybe there will be a good permanent red in the future.

[Firefox7275]

I box dyed Live XXL red for many years and did experience brown building up and red fading out. IMO the worst thing for stripping colour and condition are the sulphates in most commercial shampoos, especially those designed for red hair or clarifying! Second worst thing was hot water and third worst thing water in general. Solutions include conditioner-only washing hair, conditioning hair with a leave-in instead of a wash-out product, dry shampoo to stretch between washes. HTH.

[kateyloo]

I have been using directions colour in vermillion for the last 6 weeks. My roots are getting pretty bad, can I use a permanent colour like live on top of directions? Not sure if directions contains henna

[StephanieFlowers]

I have been using directions colour in vermillion for the last 6 weeks. My roots are getting pretty bad, can I use a permanent colour like live on top of directions? Not sure if directions contains henna

Directions is not henna, it's a pigmented conditioning colour. You can use a permanent dye to top up your roots then put directions on top, but keep in mind you should only use permanent colours and bleach once every 4 weeks. You may find that using a permanent colour will make your hair darker than using bleach, as permanent reds are not as strong as semi permanent reds and quickly wash out to a dull brown.

[leahpardo]

Thanks for this! I shall read, very interested